This Is What an Engineer Looks Like
Real talk with 3 engineers at Tophatter on women in engineering, how they pivoted to coding, and what a good culture looks like
You don’t know what you’re not exposed to.
In college, I didn’t know what engineers actually did in the real world, even though I took Intro to Computer Science, I was a student IT/computer consultant, and I even took classes at MIT, bastion of engineers. I didn’t know the tech world was about super cool, fun stuff like building products that change people’s lives! There were no role models, in real life or on TV, much less ones that looked like me.
Fast-forward many years, and now I am working with the most female engineers I’ve ever worked with (which is to say, we still have a lot of room for improvement in the tech industry), and it has been FANTASTIC.
My wonderful colleagues, Tophatter software engineers Lindsay Anchors James, Shannon Nolan, Fiona Wong, and I have worked closely together on the same teams building that very cool stuff.
Here we share their stories in the hopes of showing examples of what a software engineer looks like (it could be you!), the real talk on how much further we have to go for women in engineering, and what a good, inclusive engineering culture looks like — it definitely takes effort to find the good ones but they’re out there! We found it at Tophatter.
Each of their unique stories shows that you don’t even have to start off in engineering to do engineering. It’s never too late! Again, this speaks to the importance of being exposed to the possibilities in the first place.
The format below starts with the story of how each pivoted into engineering from a different career, and then the four of us have an asynchronous “fireside chat” a la Oprah style. Their responses, in their own words, have been edited for clarity.
Lindsay Anchors James
Her Story
My path to programming meandered through art, international affairs, the law, and, eventually, programming.
In the years following law school, I had my eyes open for careers that might better feed my creative soul. A girlfriend from high school, who had recently gotten into tech as a data scientist, and my computer-programmer partner suggested that I might like programming. My partner pointed me to some resources and, happily, I took to it!
I started to notice my free time whiz by as I dabbled with programming workbooks and online courses. I thought, wow, I could do this for a living and have fun and be creative at work.
Unclear how to build something from nothing or the path to getting paid for such fun, I applied to Hack Reactor, a coding bootcamp. My time at Hack Reactor flew by and 3 months after graduating, and stumbling through nervous interviews and self-doubt, I landed a job at Tophatter. Three and a half years later, I’m a Senior Software Engineer and a mother of a rambunctious toddler.
Shannon Nolan
Her Story
Growing up I was always fascinated by watching the boom that was and still is Silicon Valley. I knew I wanted in, but because I thought I wasn’t good at math or not among the brightest in my school, it just wasn’t in the stars for me.
At the time, it seemed like a boys’ club and I felt like I just wouldn’t belong. Instead, I focused on another passion of mine which was teaching.
I taught elementary school for a couple of years and found myself constantly looking for new technology or games online that would engage my students. Eventually teaching wasn’t quite what I expected, and I realized that my heart wasn’t as in it as much as it used to be.
I had a friend who went to a coding bootcamp and then worked as a software engineer for Venmo. It sounded almost too good to be true. I looked into it and was inspired by the number of people who went to coding bootcamps with great success.
So I took a chance! It wasn’t easy, but I enjoyed every second and actually wanted to stay late to keep working and loved the puzzles that coding presents. I found a piece of tech that I could belong to.
Fiona Wong
Her Story
My switch to engineering was very fluid. I started as an accountant after college, getting my Masters in Accounting while working for various tech startups.
Accounting can be repetitive and I was feeling bored. You’re essentially doing the same thing every month. I found myself thinking, “ I can’t be doing this for the rest of my life.”
At the time where I was working, there were a lot of struggles as an accountant waiting for engineering to fix reports that were broken, when they were focused on new feature development. I found myself thinking I wish I could code so I could fix this reporting myself and that’s driven what I love to do as an engineer: create technology to help others work more efficiently with a heavy emphasis on user experience.
Luckily I had a couple of friends and coworkers do coding bootcamps so I was able to lean on their experience to push me into pursuing engineering full time.
And now onto our asynchronous fireside chat portion (asynchronous since we are living in remote, corona times).
Oprah is one of my favorite inspirations, so let’s just pretend we’re Oprah and friends having a cozy chat getting into the spicy talk…
Asynchronous Fireside Chat
Christina: Let’s jump to the real talk. Any surprising experiences as a female in male-dominated engineering? For me, as a female product manager in tech, examples range from a male engineer new teammate asking if I was the administrative assistant to a married male executive/co-founder asking me to sit on his lap at a company party. How about ya’ll?
Shannon:
After the bootcamp, I was hired at a small startup with a team of 4 male engineers (this was prior to Tophatter).
I had wonderful teammates who not only allowed me to learn but also helped me in any way they could. Unfortunately I didn’t have the same experience with upper management, which consisted of all males.
It was small things here and there where it was clear they didn’t see me in the same light as my male teammates. It was seemingly minor things, like not including me, the sole female engineer, in the engineering interview processes, or not inviting me to meetings where my entire team was invited.
I learned pretty quickly that I had to advocate for myself, which became especially important after a work event where I was sexually harassed.
A male coworker made extremely inappropriate comments to me about sexual acts he wanted me to perform on another female coworker and inappropriate comments about my breasts.
I had never faced such overt harassment, especially in a professional environment, and was at a loss about what to do. This company didn’t even have an Human Resources department or an HR person. This led to a very awkward conversation between me and my male manager where I had to repeat the lewd comments to him. Originally they were going to handle it among the managers, but they hired an outside HR firm to handle it. I was thankful for that, but at the same time not thankful that while they investigated the allegations, the harasser was still working in the same office as me.
I had heard struggles from other female software engineers, but never truly understood the uncomfortable and absolute shock you get while trying to get justice. Having to repeat what he said to me to other male coworkers in the investigation and having to write it down made it all so surreal.
I was scared that this was my life in tech now and it would just be something I would have to deal with.
I am happy to say that I was wrong because then I found Tophatter!
Fiona:
Both engineering and finance are such male-dominated industries and I’ve found them to be completely different hurdles.
When I first graduated from bootcamp one of my male friends told me that I should be getting a lot of interviews because “women in tech are a hot commodity right now.” I mean that’s true and I see it internally on the positive side, meaning engineering managers are actively trying to hire more female engineers.
However, it makes me cringe a little bit every time a male engineer says we need to hire more junior engineers or engineers with less experience to get more female engineers in the pipeline.
This creates a stigma that female engineers are automatically seen as being more junior and creates an extra hurdle to get to the next level when I’ve seen the case that you don’t need to lower any bar on experience to hire strong female engineers.
Male engineers that come from the same bootcamp background don’t have the same judgement made upon them that they’re more junior than they are.
When I was working as an accountant at a previous tech startup, I was harassed by an executive.
I still remember it vividly: We were at the company holiday party where everyone was dressed up, and the VP of Product at the time looked me up and down and said, “Oh if you dressed like that all the time, I’d actually submit my expense report in time.” This same VP was known to get handsy when inebriated.
Of course HR knew about this, but did nothing because of his value-add to the company, and he later went on to join Google in a product leader role. I’ve known of many instances like this in my career.
Lindsay:
Since starting in programming, I’ve never been so consistently surrounded by men, and yet, I’ve been fortunate to not run up against obvious roadblocks or the harassment that many women in engineering have faced.
Christina: I’ve been impressed by how much the engineering leadership at Tophatter cares about diversity and inclusion. It starts at the top with Matt Rubens (head of engineering, product, design, and growth) to our co-founders Ashvin Kumar (CEO) and Chris Estreich (CTO), to engineering leaders like Joe Manley and Wayne Huang, to all our incredibly supportive male teammates. It is heartwarming to have so many proactive male allies championing women in engineering — we couldn’t do it without them! What has been your experience, given that you considered other companies as well?
And Lindsay, you started our DEI committee, all while juggling work and taking care of a baby without daycare during the pandemic — what inspired you to start that?
Lindsay:
To continue from my last answer: While I haven’t faced harassment, numbers matter. Until recently, Tophatter had just one female product manager and 3 female engineers out of 25 engineers total. The company has committed to tackling this problem and I’m glad. My fiercest advocate at work so far has been another woman (Christina) and I think this is no coincidence [Christina’s response: !!!]. We are stronger and louder together.
I started a DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion) committee in Fall 2019 to help with engineering recruiting, and I’m happy that it has taken off. It has opened up many thoughtful conversations that I hope will lead to the same kind of real change that we regularly adopt for our engineering tools and processes.
Fiona:
I’m not going to lie, having Sophia [Sophia Wu, former senior software engineer] as one of my interviewers was another deciding factor when I joined. During our interview, I was like, “Wow another female, Asian engineer who is great to work with.”
We have a lot of transparent conversations to drive DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion), and like a lot of other companies, we struggle on execution. We hire interns from the same top schools, our engineering team is white-male-dominated, much of our “how to hire more women in engineering” discussion centers around hiring more junior engineers.
There’s a lot that Tophatter can improve upon, and on the upside, we’re actively working on making things better and that change isn’t going to come in a day. Even with a small team, there are plenty of us trying to create a more inclusive environment to attract diverse talent.
Shannon:
Tophatter is everything that my previous company wasn’t: competent leaders, emotionally intelligent colleagues, and a full-blown HR department.
My previous experience jaded me but it was evident, almost immediately, that Tophatter was nothing like what jaded me.
My first 1:1 with my then-manager Micah [former director of engineering, Micah Jaffe] proved that he genuinely cared about what I had to say. That was new. I learned to think critically about our processes for having constructive 1:1s from that point on. This leadership mentality was clear from the top all the way down to me.
When there was an incident where a male interview candidate seemed to react to me differently than to our male engineering colleagues in interviews, Tophatter believed me.
I didn’t have to say it twice, and my manager, Matt [our big boss of engineering, Matt Rubens], made a point to meet with me to make sure there wasn’t more I didn’t want to say in the bigger group. I felt supported and a sense of relief that the tech industry isn’t only all companies like my previous company.
If you dig in, you can find the companies that embrace diversity and support their employees! That is just one aspect of the culture of Tophatter that I love.
Christina: How would you describe the engineering culture at Tophatter? Shannon is such a pro at our happy hour zoom games. Team bonding is key, and yet culture is much more than that. I greatly appreciate that we have a learning organization that values a strong growth mindset. What are some things that differentiate our eng culture?
Fiona:
I would describe our engineering culture as fun and supportive. I love our shoutouts to various team members, and comfort in sharing our opinions and corresponding discussions.
Some standouts include: The fun of our rap battles at eng weekly meetings (shoutout to Young Prophecy a.k.a. Adam Mosharrafa and Grant Kellerman), Shannon’s super legit engineering demo videos [read: Hollywood-level production quality], and our recent, open engineering team spicy discussion about using wording that is inclusive, when jokingly referring to PRs [pull requests] with weird nicknames.
Shannon:
Our engineering culture is a wonderful balance of opportunities to grow and advance in your career as well as chances to bond with your team.
2020 hasn’t been easy for team bonding but we still find ways to do it from online games to connection exercises at the beginning of meetings.
It’s strange to think that wherever I go in my career from here, I know just how critical culture will be. I learned the red flags from my previous company, and more importantly now know what a healthy and vibrant company culture looks like, thanks to Tophatter!
Lindsay:
I love the culture at Tophatter and think it bodes well for the potential for us to meet our ambitions as it relates to DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion). We know how to make change. We are constantly reflecting on and thoughtfully updating our workflows and engineering tools.
We hold each other to high standards with kindness and respect. I rarely see a PR [pull request] approved without comments, and the comments are constructive and thoughtful, often even posed as a question.
Finally, we are asked to be creative. Our opinions are valued. All engineers are involved in product development, from design, to implementation, to participating in regular retrospectives. We also hold occasional Hackathons that are energizing and fun. In my first year at Tophatter, the team had no qualms about handing a second-place Hackathon prize to my partner, Sophia Wu, and I (two female, first-year engineers).
Christina: Tophatter leadership has been amazing at handling the whole remote/Covid-19 situation. Anything in particular that stood out for you?
Lindsay, you’re also a pioneer as our first mom in engineering!
Lindsay:
I couldn’t have felt more lucky to be at Tophatter as a new mother and then, a mother during the pandemic.
When I first got back to the office after my 4-month maternity leave, there was a pumping room with a hospital-grade breast pump, fridge, desk, couch and fridge, awaiting me.
My first week back, we had a team-bonding outing. Matt [our big boss of engineering, Matt Rubens] checked with me before finalizing the schedule for the event, to ensure the timing worked with my pumping schedule and I could participate as fully as possible.
For much of the pandemic, I’ve been holding on by a thread as I try to run a household, care for a toddler, and, somehow, also advance as a programmer, only 3 years after first learning the words “truthy,” “front-end,” and “API.”
Tophatter has stood by me, encouraging employees to use the unlimited PTO policy as needed, accommodating my weird schedules, welcoming my daughter into Zoom meetings, and even promoting me amidst all of this turmoil.
Shannon:
Tophatter, in these recent Covid times, has become more open to remote work and even supported me in a move from San Francisco to Austin, Texas!
We have fun workshops, like watercolor painting or wreath making over Zoom, that make it feel like a happy hour, as well as surprise pandemic gifts that come to our door that never fail to put a smile on my face!
Fiona:
Tophatter probably has one of the best responses to Covid, like shutting down our offices before many other companies were forced to close down, giving us a $500 stipend to buy work-from-home office supplies, our many thoughtfully-curated pandemic care packages, and our lovely team-bonding activities like ramen making over Zoom!
I will admit I miss our random conversations around the office and I much prefer working in person but Tophatter has done a great job supporting everyone.
Christina: What are traits of engineering leaders who inspire you or the type of leader you aspire to be?
Fiona:
An engineering leader that inspires me is my former coworker, Principal Engineer at Eventbrite, Ben Ilegbodu (shameless plug for his workshops that I still attend: https://www.benmvp.com/). Ben is a great teacher and leader in front-end development.
The best engineering leaders are also the best teachers, with low egos and high empathy. I aspire to be just like him, a leader in front-end development, a great mentor to others, and a thought leader.
Shannon:
Leaders who care what you have to say and encourage you to make a difference in the company.
Times are changing just as rapidly as technology and what you think a software engineer looks like is not what it was.
Tech needs more companies like Tophatter that are committed to changing what a software engineer looks like, when it has become apparent that it’s something that needs constant evolving, and companies who listen to and support their diverse array of employees.
Lindsay:
Here are some ideals, much of which I see in leaders at Tophatter:
A strong engineering leader leads by example in how she communicates candidly but respectfully.
She sparks curiosity and debate with more questions than answers.
She encourages employees to take care of themselves at work and home.
She amplifies the voices of engineers from traditionally excluded groups, directly seeking their input and loudly giving credit for their ideas.
A strong engineering leader recognizes individuals’ strengths and how they contribute to a complete team. By seeking and acting on feedback, a strong engineering leader learns what kind of leader her team needs in a given moment and adapts.
Christina: Any last words of advice for aspiring or current engineers, or advice you wish you knew earlier in life?
Lindsay:
Working and advancing as a mother, especially during the pandemic is very hard. I’m still reaching, learning, stumbling, and reminding myself: “We can do hard things!” (A mantra from Untamed by Glennon Doyle.)
Engineering mottos that I’ve found useful: “Perfect is the enemy of the good” and “Ship it!”
Fiona:
I think the biggest advice I can give is to always advocate for yourself.
Make a list of all your accomplishments no matter how big or small they may seem. Do it so you can vouch for yourself when time comes.
Shannon:
I wish I could go back in time to the girl who thought she could never be a software engineer and show her just how wrong she was.
Encouraging young girls to get into STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics) and to have access to technology that will let them explore would have made all the difference for me.
Closing Words
We hope these stories and perspectives inspire young women (or anyone of any age!) to pursue engineering, even if there is no one who looks like you. Remember, everyone has unique strengths and purpose in this world. So WHY NOT YOU??
If you’re already in engineering, we hope this helps spark ideas for founders, engineering leaders, and anyone interested in actively iterating on their engineering cultures to create a place where women, underrepresented colleagues, moms, dads, or anyone can thrive. If you have any innovative systems or structure that has worked well for your team, we’d be curious to know as well!
Coincidentally, we happen to be publishing this during Computer Science Week (Dec 7–13, 2020). The universe is aligned! I highly encourage anyone to spend 1 hour to try out coding, just for fun as a creative outlet or to see if you like it — The Hour of Code website has 500+ hour-long really cool projects to choose from.
Please feel free to share this article with anyone who might benefit from a little encouragement. You never know when you might open a critical door of opportunity for someone!
Friend link for free access (Medium membership not required):
Note: Our views are our own; no one at Tophatter asked us to write this. This is a personal project from Lindsay, Shannon, Fiona, and Christina.
Other articles by Christina Pan if you’re interested (free access friend links):
